GP14 Sailing Forums Forum Two-pot polyurethane paints

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    • #25095
      Oliver Shaw
      Moderator

      I am currently engaged in repainting and revarnishing A Capella,  my erstwhile GP14.    It is 13 years since I last did the job,  which was in preparation for exhibiting her at the 2010 RYA Dinghy Show,  and despite having lived outside throughout the year for most of her life she still looks stunning,  which is amongst other things a great testament to the quality of the products used on her  –  International Perfection (2-pot polyurethane) applied on top of epoxy.   But I can see the need for a freshen-up now,  both to address minor damage acquired over the years and to enhance the gloss and the depth of protection.

      Wanting to purchase some International Perfection 2-pot polyurethane paint and varnish I have just been onto the website of my local chandler,  to find it no longer listed.    A phone call to them elicited the information that they have none in stock,   and that the manufacturer are withdrawing it from their product range from August;    they think this is because of environmental concerns with regard to some of the chemicals used in these finishes..     However they can obtain the varnish for me,  as one of their suppliers has 10 packs left in stock;   so I have ordered two of them.

      I have also located the paint that I need at another semi-local chandler,  who has one pack on the shelf;  so that is now behind the counter with my name on it,  and I shall pick it up later today.

      A subsequent check on International’s own website no longer lists these products for DIY use,  although the Pro versions are still listed;   and it has never in the past been clear to me what are the differences between the Pro versions and the standard versions.

      As yet,  I have no further information.    Specifically I have not (yet) been able to to identify whether a replacement product series is being developed  –  although I am about to email them to enquire,  and I will report back in due course.

      I also have no information on whether other manufacturers are continuing or discontinuing their two-pot polyurethane ranges.

      I have no experience of the Awlgrip product range,  but they seem to have an excellent reputation;  and I gather from their website that some of these use different technology to 2-pot polyurethanes,  and that these might be an alternative option.     But I need more information there.

      If others have relevant knowledge and experience do please chip in on this topic.

      Failing all else,  I have in the past had stunning results with my two favourite conventional products from International;   Toplac enamel and Schooner varnish.   But emphatically not Schooner Gold,  which is a very different product,  and which in my limited experience does not flow out anything like as well,  and neither does it give as good a finish;   and International’s Technical Helpline at the time told me that that is a fair assessment  –  if I liked Schooner I would probably not like Schooner Gold!   Toplac and Schooner were,  at least when I was using them on my then GP14 getting on for 20 years ago,  rated by the manufacturer as the best of their conventional products in terms of both hardness and gloss,  and second only to  their Perfection 2-pot polyurethanes in these important areas.    However I suspect that they won’t last as long as Perfection does.

       

      Oliver

      • This topic was modified 12 months ago by Oliver Shaw. Reason: Removal of formatting commands
    • #25097
      fretz
      Participant

      I used perfection for a few projects and loved it.  roll and tip looked “almost” as good as spray.

      The last project i did was in awlgrip.  I had a pro help me do it.  I did all the sanding, masking and prep then sprayed the primer while he popped by to supervise.  He did the finish coat.  It took 10 min.  We waited about 45 min while enjoying coffee and then the 2nd coat went on just as fast.  It would have taken hours to roll and tip and the spray finish is gorgeous.  The issue with the pro products is the equipment.  My deal was that i will help him sand and fair his boat when the time comes.  though i havent been put to work yet hes the winner for sure;-)

      the spray finish is far superior and worth the additional cost in my opinion.  especially if you cant find perfection.  Paint doesnt age well either so be careful with what you find in old stock.

    • #25100
      Windychippy
      Participant

      Used Perfection Pro last year on my Gp14 hull and was amazed with the finish. There is no need to tip off and I used a roller for all surfaces and an artists round brush for the internal angles to the keels.  The only draw back for me was as the temperature was low then the open time is extended and the airborne particles have more time to attach themselves.

      Windy.

    • #25101
      Oliver Shaw
      Moderator

      To update my original post,  I see from International’s website that both Perfection and Perfection Plus are now shown as “Retired” products,   although it seems that the “Pro” versions are still live.

      Bruce Idleman tells me that both products are still readily obtainable in North America,  and suggests that the problem here may be compliance with EU environmental legislation,   coupled with perhaps a commercial decision to not not have a separate product range just for the UK.

      I have today emailed the company to enquire whether they intend to introduce replacement products,  and I have told them that I am fairly visible on a number of sailing forums and that if they have any news which they wish to share this is a bit of free publicity for them!    (The carrot rather than the stick approach!   I will update the forums anyway!)

       

      Oliver

       

    • #25102
      Oliver Shaw
      Moderator

      Reply received today from International Paints’ UK Technical Sales Advisor, UK Yacht:

      We have had to cease selling Perfection to the public because of isosyanates being banned for public use.

       “We do not have a 2 pot for your use coming out in the near future.

       “Sorry”

       

      Oliver

    • #25103
      Oliver Shaw
      Moderator

      From a strictly lay perspective,  my understanding (and expectation) is that the big danger with such paints arises when spraying them;   and that danger is presumably much exacerbated for professionals who are exposed on a daily basis.       In such situations appropriate safety precautions have to be adopted,  and appropriate safety equipment used,   but I understand that the equipment and the protocols for this are now very well developed and understood.

      However for the amateur who is not spraying the material,  but applying it with either brush or roller,  and doing the job only infrequently,  I really do wonder whether a total ban is “an excess of caution”.    Does anyone on here have the expert knowledge to comment?

      Even given that these paints are now in the process of being withdrawn from the market the question is not academic:   on the one hand do we now immediately and urgently cease using our 2-pot paints altogether,  or on the other hand do we stockpile for future use while we can still obtain them?

      And,  if we are to continue using them (subject to availability),   do we need to wear protective gloves and breathing masks and eye protection?    Or is the risk,  for relatively occasional brush or roller application,  so small as to not be a problem?

      I do note Bruce Idleman’s comment that these paints are still readily available in North America,  with both DIY and Professional versions being listed on the company’s website (although spraying is specifically not advised for amateurs),  but that the ban this side of the Atlantic appears to be imposed by the EU,   and that the manufacturer may perhaps be applying the change to the UK as well in order to simplify their marketing.

      Almost all the information I have been able to unearth in an internet search this morning has referred specifically to spraying.    The one solitary mention of brushing or roller application slipped this in without comment in a list,   in the same context as spraying.

       

       

      Oliver

      • #25104
        Oliver Shaw
        Moderator

        Ah;   found some data,  and it is much as I would have guessed.

        A 2005 report from the Health & Safety Laboratory,  on experiments to determine airborne isocyanate levels and biological effects from mixing and from brush and roller application.

        https://www.hse.gov.uk/research/hsl_pdf/2005/hsl0560.pdf

        Summarising the results,  in most instances no contamination was detectable,   but they do provide estimates for “LOD” values  –  not clear what the abbreviation means,  but the units correspond to those of the maximum exposure limits set by HSE (effectively the density of the dispersed isocyanate contamination in the air)  –  and these are single figures (migrogram per cubic metre,  4 for brushing,  5 for mixing,  8 for rollering),  which are very substantially less than the maximum permitted exposure levels (70 microggram per cubic metre for the short term (15 minute) and 20 for the long term (8 hour) exposure durations.

        For the biological monitoring,  in all cases there was nothing detected.

        Their overall conclusion was that there was no detectable airborne contamination of isocyanates,  but there was potential for dermal contamination  –  particularly with mixing and rollering,  less so with brushing  –  as the paint dripped onto the protective gloves.    The nil detections in the biological monitoring indicated that the PPE used was adequate to prevent exposure.

        An air-fed visor was used for all operations.

        I am somewhat relieved,  and this tends to confirm my suspicions that the ban is the result of “an excess of caution”.    I shall continue to use 2-pot paints and varnishes for as long as I can obtain them,  including by modest stockpiling;   but I shall wear gloves (which I tend to do anyway for painting operations),  and I shall consider eye protection and consider some kind of face mask.

        Oliver

      • #25963
        Oliver Shaw
        Moderator

        UPDATE

         

        Over the first half of the summer I stocked up with International Perfection Paint and Varnish while I could still get the stuff,   sufficient (all being well) to provide for one further repaint and varnish of both A Capella and Tarka II.   That exercise involved buying what was available from three different chandlers.

        The last of the three,  1st Mark in Golborne (erstwhile Leigh Dinghy Stores),  gave me an interesting and potentially useful update.

        First,  the useful bit;   as at the time of my visit (August) Hempel are still doing 2-pot finishes;   probably reformulated,  although that is not totally clear.   They also tell me that they supply Tim Harper,  who built A Capella for me,  and that Tim has now switched to Hempel paints.

        The other information,  interesting rather than specifically useful,  is that periodically certain chemicals go onto either the “red list” or the “amber list”,  the latter being early warning that the chemical concerned is destined for the red list in the moderately near future.   Manufacturers then have a period of time in which they can,  if they choose,  reformulate their products;   and it appears that Hempel may well have done that.

        However they tell me that International’s UK sales of their Perfection 2-pot products have been declining for some years,  so it is suggested that they may have considered just how many cans they sell in the UK each year,  and taken the commercial decision in the light of that declining number to withdraw from this market rather than go to the expense of reformulating.   However I gather from Bruce Idleman in the USA that the products are still marketed there,   with no restrictions beyond the strong advice that amateurs should not apply them by spray,  and appropriate safety advice for professionals doing so (with proper hazmat protections in place);   it seems that they do not see the need to reformulate the products for that market.

         

        Oliver

    • #25971
      Windychippy
      Participant

      Oliver,  just on the off chance that your supplier may still have some Perfection Plus Varnish although it was 3 months ago that you posted that information could you possibly give me there phone number so I can check.

      Thank You

      Dave R.

    • #25972
      Oliver Shaw
      Moderator

      Apologies for any duplication;    I have just replied by email,  but it has not yet appeared,  so I am now copying and pasting here.

      -o0o-         -o0o-           -o0o-

      As of a couple of days ago, Force 4 still had a little, and as of this moment it is listed on their website as available in selected stores;  my previous experience with them is that if they have a product in one of their stores but not in their central facility they are more than willing to get it sent from whichever store has it.  They also seem to have a little paint, listed as available online, although not the full range of colours:   0345 1300 710    sales”AT”force4.co.uk

      Not sure about 1st Mark,  but I think they still had a little when I visited them yesterday;  sales”AT”1stmark.co.uk   01942 273372

      Also not sure about Liverpool Powerboats, but they are certainly worth a call:  0151 944 1163   info”AT”liverpoolpowerboats.com    Perfection Plus (the varnish) is currently shown on their website as pre-order, which suggests that it is out of stock but that they can still get hold of it to order.  Perfection (the gloss paint) is shown as in stock, but again not the full range of colours.  Perfection Undercoat is shown as out of stock.  Both the paint and the varnish carry a note on their website that as of August they are being discontinued by the manufacturer.

      Hope this helps,

       

      Oliver

       

       

    • #25973
      Windychippy
      Participant

      Thanks Oliver,

      Thumbs Up.

    • #25982
      Windychippy
      Participant

      Managed to get Force4 at Chichester to post me 1 of their 3 tins of Perfection Plus Varnish (750ml ).  Force4 Southampton has 3 tins for collection only  and head office said they have 10 tins in their stores collectively which can be ordered via themselves on 0345 1300 710.

      Nobody is picking up at 1stmark.co.uk and Liverpool Powerboats have none as of Monday morning 14th Aug 23

      So if you’re 2 pack user and planning a refurb on your top sides this winter, grab a tin quick.

      Dave R.

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